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Buffy S6 Ep 9
Silver
Well.. :eek:
Who'd have thought that one day Buffy would have got 'spiked' (Pun intended).
Bowt time she got a damn good rogering!!
Cant wait to see what the Sky censors do to it for Saturday, i assume there will be a few less minutes. Not many people can say they 'actually' brought the house down!
[ 01 March 2002: Message edited by: Silver ]
ROMBA
Sometimes other things get in the way.
Pesky Security Guards in musuems for one thing. Cue one prototype freeze ray and one very frozen Guard. And a Troika with a diamond.
It's nice having another magically inclined friend around. Even if she was once a rat.
Amy and Willow get smashed on magic at The Bronze. Glad that Willow wasn't tempted by Amy's magical dancing distraction though
as Dawn talks Tara into waiting with her until Buffy and Willow get home.
Everything's different now. Spike can hurt Buffy despite assurances from Warren that his chip is working fine.
LOL at Andrew's Doctor Who reference and Spike playing with Mr.Fett.
You're in love with pain. Buffy and Spike's fighting literally bring the house down
:eek:
So much for ergo vulnerbility and bad kissing decisions.
A good episode
[ 01 March 2002: Message edited by: ROMBA ]
gobstopper
I can't either.... Having moved Buffy to the one night of the week I am never in, I am resigned to setting the video.
Originally posted by Silver:
[qb]Cant wait to see what the Sky censors do to it for Saturday[/qb]
However, in recent weeks, I have fallen foul of a problem where my sound on Sky 1 goes dead. If I'm there at the time and I switch channels it comes back again.
It's not much use though when it happens 20 minutes into the show, and I'm not around
Noticed that they are repeating on Saturday, so I should get to see something (even if it isn't the full monty
Does Angel get repeated at all? - 'cause I've got no sound on that either.
[ 01 March 2002: Message edited by: gobstopper ]
Red
*Thump*
The sound of my jaw hitting the floor!! :eek:
Check the TV Mag ... last week it was repeated on Sky One at 11.30pm on Saturday
Originally posted by gobstopper:
[qb]Does Angel get repeated at all? - 'cause I've got no sound on that either.[/qb]
Joe
I still prefer 'Axis of Awful'.
Originally posted by ROMBA:
[qb]And a Troika with a diamond.[ 01 March 2002: Message edited by: ROMBA ][/qb]
And 'Hello
In a State of Dan
Buffy & Spike - eww! It's just wrong on all sorts of levels.
But hey, let's concentrate on the really crucial part of the episode - Tara's still here!
White Hart
Woah...pushing the arc on in all kinds of ways! How out of control was Willow? Then again, Amy's going to be a bad influence, because she was never bothered about control - look at Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered, or even the way she turned herself into a rat without thinking about how she'd get back.
And now we know - Buffy *did* come back broken. She's not human - so I wonder what she is? That scene between her and Spike was incredible :eek: It doesn't look like a good sort of relationship to me though...
And I thought the scene with Tara and Dawn was incredibly touching, especially when you think that in her 'memories' Dawn must have gone through exactly the same thing with Hank..
Rae
i was thinking about Amy before she got ratted...and why would she have wanted Larry to ask her to the prom..wasn't she dating some gothic looking guy in 'gingerbread'..i think he was called Micheal or something?
i loved the milkshake scene with Dawn and Tara.
Soemthing about all the taunting by Spike when he found out somethingwas wrong with Buffy seemed out of place after all of season 5 and the rest of season 6...more like the Spike that was taunting her in the quad when he had the ring of amarra in season 4...
Silver
FYI..the saturday repeat butchered..well i say that, they basically cut the best bit out!! A good minutes worth! :eek:
The Prophet
I don't think she was dating Michael; he just hung out with her and Willow because he was a Warlock. Well, man-witch; Warlock actually has a more specific and entirely uncomplimentary meaning, but that's neither here nor there.
Originally posted by Rae:
[qb]i was thinking about Amy before she got ratted...and why would she have wanted Larry to ask her to the prom..wasn't she dating some gothic looking guy in 'gingerbread'..i think he was called Micheal or something?[/qb]
There's an article on the Buffy Dialogue Database called Ain't Love Grand: Spike and Courtly Love, which compares Spike's pursuit of Buffy to the classic riff of the wooing of an untouchable, unattainable love in medieval troubador poetry. The basic gist is that this pursuit enobles the pursuer, in part because the love involved becomes chaste and pure, even if it begins as sexual, precisely because the object of desire is unattainable.
[qb]Soemthing about all the taunting by Spike when he found out somethingwas wrong with Buffy seemed out of place after all of season 5 and the rest of season 6...more like the Spike that was taunting her in the quad when he had the ring of amarra in season 4...[/qb]
In this scenario, it would seem perfectly apt that the lover (Spike), would backslide into old habits when the lady (Buffy) suddenly does not seem so far out of reach. What has made Spike a gentler person (thing) is his quest for Buffy's love; a quest that can never be fulfilled, and thus keep pushing him to strive further and harder. When Buffy allows him to come close to her with a kiss, this changes the rules. With the finish line in sight, the quest becomes once more amorous and sexual, instead of spiritual. This switch is furthered by the fact that the very nature of the lady has changed.
Consequently - although this should not be read as Buffy's fault - Spike's very redemption is in the balance, because his motivation is gone. The fact that he seemed to be almost convincing himself of his killer status could be a good sign, or just residual fear of the chip. We shall see, I'm sure.
FiveByFive
Spike's behaviour in this episode was fascinating. He'd convinced Buffy and her friends, us the audience, and maybe even himself that he'd changed, and was fighting on the side of good. But as soon as he realised that it didn't hurt when he hit Buffy, his first thought was to revert to his vampire behaviour and find a human to feed off, thinking his chip must have failed.
It was only when he then found out that it did still hurt to harm humans, that he went to have his chip checked and realised that it was Buffy that was 'wrong'.
It's going to be very interesting to see how he behaves from now on. He's still got his chip but now he has some power over Buffy, he can hurt her and he knows she has an attraction to him. And he's still evil.
Astronut
It's an interesting idea, especially given Spike's pre-vampire career (as a failed romantic poet), but I think you're attributing far too much nobility to him. He became a "good guy" because with the chip, it was impractical for him to carry on being a bad guy. He fell in with the Scooby Gang, because that way at least he could carry on fighting, especially knowing the demons wouldn't hit back if he was protected by his proximity to the Slayer (witness the loan shark for example).
Originally posted by The Prophet:
[qb]There's an article on the Buffy Dialogue Database called Ain't Love Grand: Spike and Courtly Love, which compares Spike's pursuit of Buffy to the classic riff of the wooing of an untouchable, unattainable love in medieval troubador poetry. The basic gist is that this pursuit enobles the pursuer, in part because the love involved becomes chaste and pure, even if it begins as sexual, precisely because the object of desire is unattainable.
In this scenario, it would seem perfectly apt that the lover (Spike), would backslide into old habits when the lady (Buffy) suddenly does not seem so far out of reach. What has made Spike a gentler person (thing) is his quest for Buffy's love; a quest that can never be fulfilled, and thus keep pushing him to strive further and harder. When Buffy allows him to come close to her with a kiss, this changes the rules. With the finish line in sight, the quest becomes once more amorous and sexual, instead of spiritual. This switch is furthered by the fact that the very nature of the lady has changed.[/qb]
His interest in Buffy has always been much more sexual than courtly. If he could, he would have been much more direct and violent in his approaches, which is exactly what he tried when he realised he could hurt her after all. Hence this week's ending.
I know it looks like more, what with his looking after Dawn, but to be honest, I think he has much more affection for her than Buffy. The Slayer is an object for him to possess, Dawn is actually a friend.
Spike has never been threatened with redemption. To be redeemed, he would have to want to go back on his ways and make up for them (as did Angel) - and not just for the redemption either, it has to be an unmotivated change. Spike has never claimed this, and has never made any indication of wanting to. His anti-demon activities are purely selfish (he gets a fight out of it) or motivated by personal loyalty (the Scooby gang treats him decently - although that's selfish too, if he's their friend, they're not killing him).
Originally posted by The Prophet:
[qb]Consequently - although this should not be read as Buffy's fault - Spike's very redemption is in the balance, because his motivation is gone. The fact that he seemed to be almost convincing himself of his killer status could be a good sign, or just residual fear of the chip. We shall see, I'm sure.[/qb]
Spike is still evil, he's just straight-jacketed.
Which to me makes the character all the more interesting...
Jon
DanG
Hmmm SFX magazine spoiler section said pretty much the same thing in Januarys edition. However when I watched the scene, there was an undercurrent.
Originally posted by FiveByFive:
[qb]Spike's behaviour in this episode was fascinating. He'd convinced Buffy and her friends, us the audience, and maybe even himself that he'd changed, and was fighting on the side of good. But as soon as he realised that it didn't hurt when he hit Buffy, his first thought was to revert to his vampire behaviour and find a human to feed off, thinking his chip must have failed.
[/qb]
Spike was being played hesitantly, as if he is trying to convince himself of his generic evilness...
It wasn't that he wanted to attack the human, but more that now the chip seemed to have failed that he should attack. Thus his faltering explanation about how evil he was...
Thats what I read into it. Although you are right, that Spike of late has been played in a far off direction from this, and this scene felt out of character. He could have gotten away with it in season 4, and even through most of season 5... But this year it just felt wrong.
The Prophet
It depends on what you consider necessary for redemption. Is it enough to do the right thing without hope of reward? If so, then Spike was moving that way, especially after Buffy's death, when obviously the idea of ever possessing Buffy was out of the question.
Originally posted by Astronut:
[qb]
I know it looks like more, what with his looking after Dawn, but to be honest, I think he has much more affection for her than Buffy. The Slayer is an object for him to possess, Dawn is actually a friend.
[/qb][/GUOTE]
I think you underestimate Spike's capacity for love. Harmony was an object to be possessed, in part because he needed a relationship where he was in control after his ego-thrashing by Drusilla. Buffy is something more, more like what he felt for Dru, which does not mean fluffy bunny feelings, but does make her more than just an object.
As for the courtly love deal, the idea of courtly love is not that the lover does not want to get into the lady's pants; he almost always does in the beginning. The point is that the lady's inaccessibility forces the more spiritual angle. It's the counterpoise to the idea in Crush that love for selfish reasons can never lead to redemption; in the troubador ideal it can do, by the ultimate transformation both of that love and of the lover.
[QUOTE][qb]
Spike has never been threatened with redemption. To be redeemed, he would have to want to go back on his ways and make up for them (as did Angel) - and not just for the redemption either, it has to be an unmotivated change. Spike has never claimed this, and has never made any indication of wanting to. His anti-demon activities are purely selfish (he gets a fight out of it) or motivated by personal loyalty (the Scooby gang treats him decently - although that's selfish too, if he's their friend, they're not killing him).
Spike is still evil, he's just straight-jacketed.
Which to me makes the character all the more interesting...
Jon[/qb]
I suppose then that any chance of that kind of redemption could be seen as ending with Buffy's resurrection, and the rebirth of a chance - however minute - that Buffy would one day love him the way he wanted.
Notably, Angel does not do what he does for the goal of redemption, but he also does not do it to atone any more. Part of his realisation in S2 was that what he has to do is fight the good fight _because it has to be fought_.
While I agree that Spike is not of a kind with Angel, I do not think that he it just a constrained monster. If he were - if there were nothing more to the character than his enforced incapacity to act against humans - I think he would have got boring a long way back.
I believe that he is not so much evil as wannabe evil. He was the big bad for over a century, and now he doesn't know what to do if he isn't evil any more.
I think I'm rambling again now, so I'll shut up for a bit.
Astronut
Rambling's good
Angel actually has it spot on. He fights for others, because they need defending. This is what will ultimately redeem him. While I agree that Spike has certainly been changing (that's a point I hadn't considered Dan), his motivation has mostly been "I'll fight Evil because it's the only way I get to fight" or "I'll be Good cos it'll impress Buffy" - and this is his fundamental flaw.
I know it's a very Christian ideal, but to achieve redemption, he has to change fundamentally. It's not enough to go through the motions, or to want to be redeemed, you have to want to change. Ideally, you do so without hope of reward - it's the belief that you're doing the right thing that is important.
It maybe that through trying to live up to the ideal for his own twisted reasons, Spike is changing, but I'm certainly not convinced it's deliberate... And if he does change, I don't think it's his interest in Buffy that will do it, but the fact that he keeps pitching in to help the others when he doesn't need to - the fact that most of them treat him like a human being (especially Dawn) is making him start to think like one.
Jon (an long-experienced rambler
The Prophet
At his best - end of Season 5 - he actually looked to be getting beyond the "This will impress Buffy" into the ideal of "this will bring me closer to being _worthy_ of Buffy".
Originally posted by Astronut:
[qb]
Angel actually has it spot on. He fights for others, because they need defending. This is what will ultimately redeem him. While I agree that Spike has certainly been changing (that's a point I hadn't considered Dan), his motivation has mostly been "I'll fight Evil because it's the only way I get to fight" or "I'll be Good cos it'll impress Buffy" - and this is his fundamental flaw.
[/qb]
Actually, the idea of being worthy is a very important one to Spike and always had been. I think a major reason why Spike became such a popular character is that underneath his bravo exterior, there's always been this deep insecurity. PArticularly in the latter halves of Seasons 2 and 5, we see him struggling to regain and then to gain the affections of the woman he's in love with, because he badly needs to be loved in return. Deep down, he's still the stuttering geek that Drusilla first met, desperately seeking approval, and to be something better than he is.
As William he tried to be a poet, and he was awful. As Spike, he tried to be the Big Bad, and he was good at it; at least until he ran into the Slayer he couldn't beat. He was also Dru's lover and her black knight; at least until he got crippled and Angelus showed up. Since the only things he could ever do well were fight and love Dru, he was left back at square one: a wretched bag of self-loathing.
When he got the chip in his head he was reduced to the same state as when he was crippled. He was nothing; in his own mind most of all. Having sought, since his turning, validation of his existence through battle, he was left without a prop; until he found out that he could kill demons. He dodesn't just fight demons because he enjoys the violence; he fights them because he has to fight _something_ to continue to feel like he has a purpose in life.
But more than that, he has to be the best. He could never have functioned under the annoying one, and he chafed at Angelus' rule because he needs to be the Big Bad; not just the medium not nice. Likewise, with the demon-killing, he is always stuck with the fact that the Slayer is stronger, and better than him. Consequently, he needs something else in his life, and Buffy has become that something.
At first, he wanted Buffy to be his new Drusilla; goddess, lover, mistress. All good, clean, vampire family fun. But the fact that he couldn't touch her changed that, and he had to change his goals, because he needs something he can aspire to. In The Gift, when he says that Buffy treats him like a man, he really means it. He knows he doesn't have a chance with her, but she's given him something else to find purpose and pride in.
I think through the summer when Buffy is dead, Spike was doing this. His demon-soul means that he has a flawed internal sense of good and evil - according to Joss, demons tend towards evil, while soul-having humans tend towards good, but neither is fixed; hence, evil humans - so he takes his lead externally. He was out, fighting the fight with the Scoobies, because it was what Buffy would have wanted, and because for him, Buffy's memory had become his moral compass.
[qb]
I know it's a very Christian ideal, but to achieve redemption, he has to change fundamentally. It's not enough to go through the motions, or to want to be redeemed, you have to want to change. Ideally, you do so without hope of reward - it's the belief that you're doing the right thing that is important.
[/qb]
Notably, he began backsliding because Buffy was spending more time with him than with the Scooby Gang, and this actually parallels with her own doubts about her purpose and direction. She is still Spike's compass, but she herself is no longer pointing true North. She's lost her passion for the good fight, and therefore so does Spike, who relies on her for direction. That, plus the renewed notion that he might actually get to have her, displaces the need to be worthy of her on a higher level.
Well, my point originally was that his interest in Buffy ceased to be a force of redemption when she became attainable. It was when she was elevated in his mind to an ideal, rather than a woman - however outstanding - of flesh and blood (somewhere around Crush I reckon), that the possibility of his transformation became real, and at her restoration to the flesh (literally and figuratively) that it slipped away again.
[qb]
It maybe that through trying to live up to the ideal for his own twisted reasons, Spike is changing, but I'm certainly not convinced it's deliberate... And if he does change, I don't think it's his interest in Buffy that will do it, but the fact that he keeps pitching in to help the others when he doesn't need to - the fact that most of them treat him like a human being (especially Dawn) is making him start to think like one.
[/qb]
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